Dan Pontefract, Author and Leadership Strategist, on Creating Agency

Colin Hunter: 0:07

Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of the leadership tales podcast. My name is Colin Hunter, delighted to be joined by Dan Pontefract today. Dan Pontefract is an author, author of books like a flat army, the purpose effect. And he is going to explore with us today some of the concepts behind the book, talking about what we're facing what we have been facing in the pandemic. That's part about agency for leaders part about connectivity and connection. But also as a man who takes July, August, to reconnect with his family talking about where leaders need to start to think about how they get the balance right in connection with the family, as well as with work and what they're trying to do. Dan's background left the U.K., a two-month-old, tells a lovely story about the fact that Canada was free to go to Australia was 10 pounds, so decided to go to Canada. And he spent the rest of his career out there. And again, the career that he talks about today is working up from choices of a decision on career through to becoming a chief learning officer. And then starting his own business where it's around writing, thought leadership, and coaching. So Dan will take us through that you'll love the conversation. Great man, very charismatic, and I look forward to hearing your feedback. Enjoy Dan.

Colin Hunter:: 01:36

Delighted to be joined by another Canadian, Dan Pontefract. There's something about Canadians being roughly my favorite band ever. But also, just every Canadian I meet I love. So I'm looking forward to chatting today with Dan. Dan is an author, mentor, and speaker TEDx speaker. So that's what you do in your background. Dan, lovely to have you on the show today.

Dan Pontefract 1:59

Colin, thanks very much; Canadian stick together. But we do say sorry, a lot. So if you hear me say sorry for whatever I say today. That's why it's in the D.N.A.

Colin Hunter 2:07

It's very appropriate when people wrong because I say sorry, a lot. I'm trying not to. I'm saying to say why. There's another thing you know, I've been wrong. Yeah. Great. But let's celebrate. Dan, for those who don't know, you are useful. Just can you tell us a bit about yourself and your background?

Dan Pontefract 2:23

Yeah. Delighted to hear again. Thanks for having me. So much fun. Love your work and the past episodes. So keep doing what you're doing. You're helping and doing a good thing. Good cause for those that know Latin, I suppose could start there. Why not? And my last name in Latin is broken bridge. So Ponte is a bridge, and fract is a fracture. So I often kid around, particularly to my three teenage children, that I'm not trying to break the bridges. I'm actually being the antithesis of my last name and building bridges. So that's where we start. I am originally an Englishman, but my parents wanted to immigrate to Canada. And the reason they emigrated to Canada was because it was free. It was 10 pounds for Australia. I think it was 20 pounds of Bermuda. And Canada was free. So being the frugal Brits, they were up in Blackburn, they found their way outside of Toronto, and I'm really a Canadian, because I came over when I was about two months old. So that's kind of how I got to Canada and been here for 50 years, turned 50 last month. But basically, I think there's, you know, three, three, Dan's. So the growing up, Dan. I don't know. I mean, I just happen to be captain of soccer teams and presidents of Student Councils like I just always seem to love leading things, you know, if it was a project, the team, the council, what have you. But because perhaps I had some British in me, I was a much better soccer player than most Canadians. And so I ended up as a youth playing, you know, on the, like, the provincial teams training with the national teams.

Colin Hunter 4:15

Nice. Can I just translate for the British audience? It's football. Yeah. Is that just I'll put it in. So soccer, football, just in case is any bridge listeners wondering, I have to do it the other way when we're talking. Football, we have to translate it to the American audience. So just want to put that in there. Yeah, sorry.

Dan Pontefract 4:32

Fair enough. Yeah. So I'll, uh, I'll use them interchangeably. So anyway, I'm playing around, and I got hurt. When I was 17, and two things happened, I was cut from a national team once in the there were British managers for the squad, and when they cut the squad, they put us into a like a gymnasium room, kind of thing like an auditorium, and they brought all 25 Lads in into the room, and they came upon the stage. And at the microphone, they called out the team of 18. And then the seven hours that were left, obviously I didn't get chosen. You know, the manager who I think from Liverpool said, well, better luck next time, lads, and walked off. And so there was. I think it was 16. Just thinking to myself, how do you treat human beings like this, so that formed me, I don't want to be like that man theory. But then I also had an injury. And I had to, you know, be in a physio for about six or seven months after a six-month six-month surgery and cast and so on. So I wanted to like, oh, so maybe I really like people, I don't want to be like that manager. And maybe I should go be a doctor. And so I have relatively good marks, I would say, and so off, I go to McGill University thinking I was going to be a doctor. And it turns out that I don't like the sight of blood, Colin. So that's not cool. But also I had this sort of Epiphany in the year going into my first-year uni, and I was like, you know, what, why would I want to? I mean, I have the utmost respect for anyone in the N.H.S., any doctor, anyone that's in health care anywhere on the planet, but why would I want to be trying to help someone get back to at least 100%? Why don't I? Why don't I go into something that'll allow me to be helping people get past there, you know, current level? And so I walked into a guidance counselor's office, and I said, I don't think I want to be a doctor. Perhaps you have anything else, you know, is literally going through the Rolodex of what they have there and McGill University in Montreal, and she's like, well, you should be a doctor, your marks are so good. No, I'm not going to be; let's clear. Let's be clear here says, Okay. Well, you're again, kind of smart. So engineering, let's put you an engineer. I'm like, God, no, my dad's an engineer, that's not going to have

Colin Hunter 7:04

So a common theme on dad's there as well.

Dan Pontefract 7:08

Pontefract group, kind of in: 2016

Colin Hunter 9:30

I love that I just wanted to dig into a couple of things because there's, there are commonalities coming through that for me. One is, it's almost that you had an experience at a time about leadership, which challenged you and said, Look, this isn't how we should be treating people. And I do remember if my days at Procter and Gamble are exactly what I saw. I almost had what I described as the cockroach, the people who almost nuclear bomb could go off, and they still survived. They do something majorly wrong. They treat people in a bad way, and they'd survive, and the good people would go, and that's one of the key things that I love that theme I don't know if it's something to do with the Lancashire Liverpool piece as well as a bit of a, you know rivalry going on there so it could have just been that there could have been but let's not let the trill get in the way of a good story.

Dan Pontefract: 10:15

scousers scousers. Yeah.

Colin Hunter: 10:18

My mom is a woolyback. So she's close to scars. Yeah, so yeah. But what I love is the move to education. And I love almost at this commonality in terms of the, when you're challenged, that you shouldn't be doing it, you're too good to be a teacher. And I do think that the quality of teaching is so important, particularly in leadership. So I love that. So if you were to say and go back to those days, what was wrong with the leadership? And what are the changes that you've seen particularly recently that have given you hope that we're heading in the right direction?

Dan Pontefract: 10:51

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've only I mean, this is we're gonna record for six hours, so we might be able to get through the break. Or maybe, maybe invite me back, and we'll extrapolate the series,

Colin Hunter: 11:02

the multitrack series. Yeah. You also know that you named it after a cake. Yeah, just

Dan Pontefract: 11:07

Oh, of course. Right over there. I've got a bag of licorice all the time. I mean, I'm effectively royalty when I go to York, Colin. There's a red carpet. There's a dilapidated Castle called Pontefract Castle. Imagine that. And there's licorice. I am like, I'm black Medallion licorice. Boy, that's what I am.

Colin Hunter: 11:31

And absolutely, you've got a chip on each shoulder, which is the other side of in Yorkshire. So you know, you got to have the balance in there. So it's good. Anyway, sorry, we digress.

Dan Pontefract: 11:39

So, I mean, there's other and different and varying ways in which to say, like, what's the problem with leadership back then, because many of those same traits are still evident today. And I think, you know, often it's coming back to no matter what era the 70s,80s, 90s or now, it comes back to three key things. One is that lack of relatability, empathy, human humanity is humaneness sometimes, I call it like that, just the thing that leaders think they ought to be is the exact opposite of what they ought to be. And that is, you know, they show up at work virtual or otherwise, with a Teflon suit on, and they pretend to be this, like, the person they're not. Now there are some meetings out there, of course, and that, you know, that's not the purpose, but there's just this, like a contradiction. It's that, oh, I'm a leader, now, I better be a jerk or now, you know, I better not be myself. And this is not a male, female thing. This is, you know, all the above. So that's, that's number one. I just, I don't understand why people don't want to bring their own selves, and full selves to work. You know, as if we don't have issues with our kids at home as if, you know, you know, in my case, I'm not very handy, and you know, sometimes I try to be handy, and I make mistakes at home. I'm happy to share that I'm not handy, and I make mistakes. I'm like, Well, why not? Anyway, that pulls ridiculousness so that that continues, right? It doesn't matter; it is again 1975 or 2021. So there's that number two is power. And, and so this kind of greed, not just money, greed, but the greed of power, so you know, entitlement, team size, budget, information, collateral data, intellect, like not willing to share and collaborate with others. So power can be dissected in so many different ways, but that is rampant systemic and weird. So I don't. I don't really get it. So that would be number two. And then number three, which I believe probably has taken on more of an aura over the past ten years or so. And we might be able to thank Jack and Mark Zuckerberg and potentially even the Microsoft's and SAP's and so on of this world, but it's its technology ironically. And so this distractedness, this busyness, this malevolent sucking sound of time, and how we are inappropriate with our use of time, particularly when as leaders we ought to be guided on this side coaches and listeners for our team there for them, you know, present for them. That has I've seen sort of an exacerbated level of inanity as a leader so so if anything, I would say not one's true self at work, power and its varying degrees of cutting it. And then, of course, this sort of lack of presence, I'll call it.

Colin Hunter: 14:58

And it, I want to combine this because I was listening to one of your talks and I love this. I've called it the Mona Lisa rush. Yeah, that you talked about this desire to go because I've done that. I mean, to be fair, I went through the first few sections of the Louvre and went straight to the Mona Lisa and said, Well, it's pretty small, isn't it, and missed everything. So I was, in that way I was living and breathing, but it is a, it's a sign of the leadership now, which is I go on a course or I do this, and I've led, which is nothing to do for me with leadership is more related to the empathy and connection piece. Yeah,

Dan Pontefract: 15:33

I had to give signals this year, the year 2021. As we record this, signals as of April, the first to clients, that I would be literally off the grid circa July 30. Until September 7. And the signals I had to give people for those, you know, four months, April 1 through to the end of July, was I would not be around. And you know, some of the clients that I was working with, like, What do you mean, you won't be around? Is it? No, I, I am not going to be present for you. I mean, you present for my family, because my, our 18-year-old is going off to uni, and I want to spend some time with her very focused, dedicated time. And I'm going to travel from the west coast of Canada, and Victoria, all the way to the east coast to Halifax, and I'm going to spend sort of 10 days with her just hanging out, and you know, traveling and setting things up for her new university career and people are like, but you'll be available, right? No, I will not. What don't you understand? So, I come from a place of obvious privilege, I'm able to take five weeks off, and I plan financially accordingly. Like I'm not an idiot. But just the my example your Colin was that back to that number three staying present. I do believe that that's a lost art. But the chagrin and the almost the all the close to being apoplectic faces I saw on the zoom-in team's calls, when I was explaining and again, giving the signal out that says it all to me that that they thought I was crazy. Whereas I think that they're crazy, not investing time in this case for me and my family. But that goes back to the calendar. Like if I looked at when I started doing work with organizations, I asked to look at people's calendars. I could just take them back to back to back to back to back to back to back to back every day, Monday to Friday, every week. You know, I don't ever say this that often, I suppose. But maybe France got it. Right. And, you know, in 2014, when they started, you know, a process that then became law, right to disallow and support workers to not be, you know, emailed and asked to respond overnight or on weekends. Anyway, there's a lot to dissect there. But

Colin Hunter: 18:01

I love that. But I do love that. Because if you take your three points, the technology, that connectivity, but actually you talk about in one of your books and talks around collaboration, and they and being able to collaborate and using the technology and other things in there. So it is this balance between when you're on; it's about how you collaborate and how you work, and particularly over this last 18 months to two years, we've had to find new ways of connecting. And sharing, and you know, your time with your daughter is amazing. But for some of the leaders listening in and going well, I, you know, had to learn the way to connect with technology. So it is that balance in there, isn't it around that?

Dan Pontefract: 18:42

Oh, I mean Colin, let's be clear, the pandemic has shown real serious fissures in the leadership light. But the flip side, I mean, I'm not, I'm not apocalyptic. There have been some really great empathy examples. Some people have looked in the mirror. And you know, this new word that I'm working on Colin is called agency like, I believe that there has been a heck of a lot of leaders and certainly, individual contributors have looked in the Zoom mirror. And so what am I doing? This is my life. So I'm, I'm very supportive of the existential crisis that has manifested as a result of the pandemic and people looking in the mirror and saying, Is this enough? Is this me? And maybe, you know, we'll see to the sadness of almost losing 5 million people through a pandemic, but maybe what we'll see in the shadow of that death is light, and that is people finding their true selves through agency and a sense of worth and, you know, free will.

Colin Hunter: 19:52

I love. I also had my daughter's going into the last part of our schooling, and the headteacher and the teachers are all talking about agency and working in there. So it's, it's getting a common language around there, which is great. And they're talking about how we might create agency in that sixth form. But it for me, it's classically, what you say is, it's a choice, it's a system. And the system needs to be fed either by time connecting with your daughter. It's a system that needs to be fed by connecting with your team and people but also allowing them time to connect with whatever is important to them. So there's a new world, there are new opportunities, and some of the virtual worlds have allowed me to connect more with my daughters over these last two years, despite the sadness in there. So just talking about the power that you know that I loved and leadership is language market, talking about the authority gradient, and how the diminishing of the authority gradient needs to be to get a connection, and you talk about the flat army, which I assume from reading the brief of it, that it's, it's about how you get more connection and how you reduce the amount of authority and power you have. What's your work and thoughts in there that you'd like to share? Yeah,

Dan Pontefract: 21:05

I, you know, I'm gonna dissect flat army just for a second because it actually helps to answer the question. So I began writing the book at the beginning of 2012. It ended up publishing in April 2013. And so it was a quick write because it was, it was all there is that it was at the forefront, it was just on my fingertips at the tip of my tongue, it was what I had been experiencing up until that point, as a whatever it was 41-42 year old, something like that. And it was, it was from the shenanigans of the corporate world, basically, not just the organizations I was working for and in, but you know, the suppliers, the partners, the other folks that I've been working with and having to work with so. So where I'm getting at is I sat at a restaurant in SoHo in London, with my father, and my father has moved back to Canada, or can back to the U.K., moons ago, I think after 9/11, actually, and so we're sitting there having dinner, and we started messing around with the title of the book. And somehow, you know, I got on to this notion about, well, the word army, and so that militaristic tone, sometimes people have to look at the etymology of a word and say, Whoa, didn't know that. I didn't know where that came from; how did it morph into something else? So I actually played a trick on people or even myself, I suppose, because the army actually comes back, the etymology stems from the word our Mata. And our matter is a flotilla. And a flotilla, for those that don't know that particular word right, is a bunch of boats sailing together to get from point A to point B. But when you have an armata, you have like, lots of captains, but lots of cruises. And so there's a group, like you know, sailing together to get to point B, but then you still have the team and the leader and sort of the command, if you will, of what has to go right on that ship in order not to sink not to hit an iceberg or whatever. Right. So my point I'm putting the word flat in front of army was that well, what can we do to not only inculcate in Armata Flotilla but to have sort of a flatter, genuine, collaborative way in which to do so all the while knowing that you still need a hierarchy in organizations like I am not the flat org guy like I see people writing about and trying to get that into orgs, Colin it's futile. I don't understand why that's not the argument. The argument is we can, however, act behaviorally in a more flat way in our organizations, knowing that there are going to be unit departments and teams that each have their own kind of ecosystem in which to get the work done. But if we want to not crash into one another, and we want to, whether it's turbulent waters winds, what have you, we're gonna have to work together and signal to each other in order to make the destination safely. So that unpacks that for you.

Colin Hunter: 24:24

No, it's great because it's what somebody once said, so what is the word leadership come from? And I was just in my basic stupid mode going well lead ship, and they said, is that really where it comes from? I'm sorry, I don't know. But it makes sense really because when you talk about Admiral Armata, you know when you had that, the admiral at the front, the admiral could only tell with a sense of direction to the rest of the flooded or the flotilla behind them what needed to be done, and it was up to them in the midst of battle and everything else to find their own routes and no plan survives first contact with the enemies as a famous tactician one said so. So I love that, and there's a sense of team of teams as well, isn't there is that you've got to understand what your next team is doing and you're interacting teams are doing. So I love that in terms of the concept.

Dan Pontefract: 25:12

There's a Canadian term; I'll bring in some Canadiana here. You know, the word your, Y.O.U.R., Well, in Canada, sometimes people will shorten it to yer, Y.E.R. And so sometimes I think leadership is lead your ship?

Colin Hunter: 25:30

Yes, yeah, I gotta be. And I think there's because I have an analogy here, which is, you know, a lot of leaders don't sail the ship out of the harbor. So they like the sails and they, you know, they polish the decks, and all their teams are going yay, as long as we stay safe, we'll get to the end of the year and get our bonus, but be more wrong principle is how do you sail the ship out of the harbor? So I'm fascinated by your thoughts on empathy, which he said was point one, and this ability for people to fail upon the leader side, but also on the individual side and how you create it because you, you have the purpose effect, you have lead care and win and in there is that concept of how do you get people to stretch themselves as well.

Dan Pontefract: 26:15

You know, I don't know how people feel trusted to try something new if they're getting their head cut off, or they're being, you know, ripped a new one, if you will, in front of people privately, etc. Like, if you are in an organization, and you're fearful of being whacked, i.e., Soprano's term for being fired, I suppose in an organization.

Colin Hunter: 26:44

I love that series.

Dan Pontefract: 26:44

What where is your creativity going to come from? Where's your willingness to try something new? Where is your, as I say, embrace, change quotient? Well, it's, it's going to be diminished if not nominally low. So again, it comes back to if you're empathic. I.e., you can sort of get into the heads of where people are thinking; you can get into the hearts of what they're feeling. And then through compassion, or sometimes what's known as sympathetic empathy, taking your hands, right and saying, Well, here's, here's how we can do something about this, you're actually feeling and thinking about where the employee is to allow them to succeed. And again, that's creating that culture of creativity, of openness, transparency, you know, sure, the book may stop with me, I'm the boss, but that doesn't mean I have to be a jerk and bully about it. So that to like, I guess, you know, be honest, Colin, the flat army was a cultural, organizational book, like what are the patterns, the business process flows, if you will, in order for an organization to be collaborative and open and data, lead.care.win are the actual, literally individual behaviors that we as people as leaders, ought to be employed to make a flat army come to fruition. And so I call it lead. Care. Win mostly because I was toying around with calling it lead scare when and you know, maybe that's the follow-up book. So I took the ace of the care and called it Lead. Care. Win No, but it's the reverse order. Again, I like I know my book titles somehow; I like to play around them sometimes. And so, if you want to win the hearts and minds of your people, you will care about your leadership. So again, for me, it's like a Fibonacci code; I've kind of somehow reversed it or cracked it and done it in a jumbled way to have this hidden meaning. And that's basically it. So if you know the names of your employees, kids, if you say what a great haircut, if you kind of create an environment where you're self-deprecating, if you push people to say, is that? Is that all you got? I think you could learn something more from this, like, here's a course or hey, would you like to take this meeting? You did a great job in front of the X yesterday. But I think, you know, now we're going up to the V.P. you run this, you know, chances to learn and develop like all of this, like honestly, Colin is about care. And so whether it's empathy, whether it's creating the conditions, whether it's the transparency, whether it's self-deprecating whether it's being meaningful, you know, whether it's a human being, whether it's saying Gazoo tight after someone sneezes, you know, civility Where did that go? Like all of it, when you wrap it up together is, it's a formula for success. I assure you.

Colin Hunter: 29:55

I love it, the second one. Somebody once gave me this word, said Colin, you need to be more careful. And that was a bit of a challenge to me because I actually, you know, I don't particularly like careful in a good way behavior, and I want to take some risks. And they said, That's not what I mean, I said, You got to be full of care. So when you're in there, and they flipped around, I love what you did with your titles a lot that is flipping around and being full of care. And what I wanted to do is link that into there was something around that you were talking about your pathway to purpose is to start with a what, who, and how, and then get to the why. And I've always thought it was the wire going home. And it was interesting for me to flip it around. So there's something in there about, maybe some of this is just about finding the right wave to your path. But tell me more about the process you do for the book about the purpose effect? And then what? No, and how, yeah,

Dan Pontefract: 30:50

Yeah, I mean, with the utmost respect to Simon Sinek, and start with why I just, I just believe it's wrong. And the reason I believe it's wrong is that we are all human beings. And there are effectively three types of purpose, but together, they create a sweet spot, both for you and the organization. So, you know, we start with ourselves, like, why do we get up? What interests us? What what are we about? You know, that's the what question like, what are our likes, our dislikes? You know, who do we want to be? Who do we want to be when we grow up? Who do we want to be that day? Who do we want to connect with? Like, what's, you know, what's our network kind of say? And then the how the question is really about, you know, existential type questions like, How do I want to be known when I enter a room? How do I want to want to be known when I leave a room? How do I want my legacy B.D? Known in this role? How do I want to be known as a parent, you know, is my firstborn of three Claire gonna be really excited when she's 40? That, you know, her old man spent time with her and, like, a lot more time with her. And just, it was a dad-daughter trip, you know? And like, that's the word which, how. And so, when you're doing that, I don't think it's ending either. I think that's it. You know, First Nations in Canada have this adage that we're all on a journey to the waterfall, which is another way to say, you know, there's an afterlife, but there's a death too, right? And so, the path meanders. So how are you every week, every month, every day asking the questions, well, what am I about? Who am I? And who do I want to be? And then how do I want to be known essentially, like, those are key questions, which then helped formulate your sense of personal purpose effectively. So as opposed to saying, you know, starting with why, why am I here? I just don't; I don't think that's enough. And neither is it for the organization. So the, again, quickly the three types of purpose for me, at least, you got that personal purpose, always asking those questions. And I was asking those questions whether or not I should leave T.E.L.U.S. And I was like, Yep, it's time to leave. And it wasn't that I had a lack of purpose in my role, which is number two, by the way. And it wasn't because I felt that felt sorry that T.E.L.U.S. didn't have a sense of organizational purpose, which is the third type of purpose, I was at a point where my personal purpose needed to grow more, and I wasn't able to do it in my role at work, or in the organization, despite the fact that I loved my role. And I love my organization. Now, play it back a little bit here. What if, you know, you have found your sense of personal purpose? And you're like, Yeah, but your organization sucks. And it's like, power tripping, or it, you know, it has just the quest for EBIT da and profitability, and you know, stock price searches and so forth. Is that Is that gonna, you know, tickle your fancy, as we say, sometimes? I don't know; it's up to you. What about your role? You know, if you do feel value in that role, do you feel that your boss is valuing you? Are you thus valuable? Are you able to create? And again, I think, you know, we often think, in the separate sense of personal purpose, from the place in which we work on average, let's say 40 hours a week. I kind of disagree more. And again, if you're thinking like a leader now and shouldn't you be invested in the personal enroll purpose of the people who are employed by you? God, I hope so. So it's a labyrinth, but I think it's solvable.

Colin Hunter: 34:44

Yes, the essence of serving leadership is in some ways, and I think people you know, when you look at it, once you put a leader needs followers are following these leaders, but where do you start? And how do you bring that around? I think there's there's not enough of that connection, and there I was. I was loved a P.C., so the unobstructed flow of corporate commonality. Yeah, if I'm quoting, right,

Dan Pontefract: 35:07

really rhymes is that point nerd really, really?

Colin Hunter: 35:11

Just it was; it was in there. I was like, Okay, I've got to listen to this two or three times, but the more I think about it, I think that's what you're talking about here, isn't it? Yeah,

Dan Pontefract: 35:19

absolutely. I mean, if an organization has crafted a purpose that is full of good deeds, so you know, it's ultimately delivering the goodness and be like great customer expectation. It's engaging its employees; it acts ethically, right? It serves all stakeholders, not just shareholders when there's good deeds affected by the organization; I believe and have seen this whether it's Salesforce Unilever, a really good big example. It's right, Microsoft under Satya Nadella compare, you know, Microsoft under the previous C.E.O. bomber, and what they've done, like, again, there's a big celebrity, you know, case studies, if you will, but I am way more interested in the list, you know, NASDAQ and, and, you know, the top 100 or 1000 companies as I am the one layer below, and that's where millions of people work, you know, 98% of Brits 97% of, or 97% of Brits 98% of Canadians work in an organization that has 5000 or less people in it. So there's so much opportunity for leaders everywhere to take hold of their purpose, the org, but also to help, you know, create an unobstructed flow of corporate commonality.

Colin Hunter: 36:52

So two final questions for you, hopefully quickly, a quick one for you. If you had to pick a well, actually, two parts, this one, which is your favorite book, and why of the ones you've written? And which is your least favorite? Why?

Dan Pontefract: 37:07

Oh, those are great questions. I'm guided by an answer that was always given by a musician in Canada. Gord Downie, who led a band called The Tragically Hip who, opened up for rush several times, incidentally. The name Yeah. And Gore Downey passed of brain cancer four years ago this fall. But whenever and I think it was 13 studio albums. I mean, they're just a great band. Russia is my number two, so hopefully, you have me back one day nonetheless. But Gord's answer is the answer I'll give when people ask him that question; he would say, whatever we're writing next. And so my favorite book right now is getting into the depths of agency, and the book title will be called the age of agency. But it's just so much fun digging into Sartor and Kierkegaard and Maya Angelou and piecing together lots of research and other authors and trying to figure out and make sense of how the pandemic may have given birth to the agency, but I believe we've resurrected it. So anyway, whatever I'm writing next, Colin, and then the one that I least like, is because of the arduous process in which I had to go about writing it. And that's the purpose effect. And here's why. The purpose effect was written twice. It was a 70,000-word book that was about to go to print. Actually, it's about to go to arcs, which is a fancy word for advance reader copies that go out to press and, you know, events, readers, etc. So it's, it's ready to publish. You know, about six months later, I sent it off to a friend of mine who used to be the former Dean of Business at the Rotman School of Business in Toronto, University of Toronto, Roger Martin, and Roger reads the manuscript phoned me up the next day and said, This is shite. Basically, he's like, this is terrible. Here's the things you're missing. Meet me in San Francisco. We'll spend a couple of days dissecting it and getting you back on track. Tell your publisher to stop the press. And I was calling; I was gutted. But you know, thankfully, you've got someone in your corner that's gonna save your ass. So then it took me a year to rewrite it to stop literally. It called the publisher to stop the press. And I think Roger is undoubtedly, and I'm indebted to his help for saving, you know, the wrong manuscript getting out there.

Colin Hunter: 39:48

Hello will ask you probably answers my next question, which is what's your biggest screw up so it could be the manuscript but you know that, but I had milled as incus to thank for mine, so she read my First when she said, what you want me to say, I'm not sure what you've written here. That was my first draft, and I went, Okay, that's just like, Okay, I'll go back and rewrite it.

Dan Pontefract: 40:11

Subtle, subtle, but you know, sick.

Colin Hunter: 40:15

She was saying the same thing as Roger was saying, but yeah.

Dan Pontefract: 40:19

I'm pretty sure Roger had more scars than he needed that night to get through the original manuscript. So anyway, there you go.

Colin Hunter: 40:28

Dan, I hope this is one of many times for you to come on. I've loved it. And we'd haven't really done justice to the depth of your work in here. But hopefully, that's given the listeners a chance to have a skim through what you do. If people want to get hear more about you. Where do they go to?

Dan Pontefract: 40:43

Well, as I say to my children, I just dialed 911 Because the best help I've got, or probably just my name, Dan Pontefract.com, is the easiest. Yeah,

Colin Hunter: 40:55

yeah. Good. Make another look in there. And thank you appreciate it. And our common friend and was right, it was worth us getting together. That was a brilliant episode. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your time.

Dan Pontefract: 41:07

Thank you so much, Colin; let's do it again, please.

Colin Hunter: 41:10

Absolutely. If you, if we can get Rush up the top band first, then we'll do that.

Dan Pontefract: 41:16

Deal. Thank you. Cheers, ciao.

Colin Hunter: 41:22

Well, that was a great conversation with Dan. I do like talking with fellow authors about their thinking and their work and how they crafted and particularly the story about the flat army and how you work that concept up. And there's a principle on here about the deep work that we do, as leaders as coaches, to really start to think about how we shape the new world for leaders and how we shape their thinking, whether it's as a chief learning officer, coach, or leadership consultant. So it's amazing to connect with Dan, and I'm sure as we were joking there, there'll be other guest appearances by Dan on this podcast as we take it further and forward. Thank you for listening. I look forward to welcoming you to another episode of the leadership tales podcast very shortly.